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janestarzBoy, have I ever a good excuse to start on that Italian. I've been pining to make a Venetian, and now I'm starting to slowly get there. Marianne has possibly got some money to spare for a good dress, even if she doesn't sell that diary she has got her hands on, and both she and Victor will need new things. Victor will be working on some armour, still staying in the landsknecht theme. As for Marianne...I did mention Italian, right?
I did some research, mostly in the Italian Showcase of the Realm of Venus. There's two very inspiring paintings. And there's three very inspiring dresses. So I'm forced to make a choice between five possibilities or to design a cross-over between them. All of them are Italian.
1. Unknown Venetian Artist, 1520s: Portrait of a Lady.
The first painting is a painting of an unknown woman. This is a black and white image, I don't know if the original is also black and white, or what medium the artist used - charcoal springs to mind though it doesn't match the style. 16th century Venetian Lady.
The lady wears a dress with a rather high waistline. It looks like the waistline is above the navel. The front of the dress closes with ties, leaving what looks like a 4 to 5 cm gap, but perspective can throw me off here. Other painters, Palma Vecchio and Giovanni Cariani have painted similar closures.
There is something that looks like a sash in her lap, but it could also be that the front of the skirt has edging along the mid-front, allowing the skirt to fall open, showing a different coloured underdress, as can be seen in other paintings from Italy (unsure if that's the same period though).
The lady wears a scoop-necked chemise (camicia) underneath her gown, and the camicia is gathered or pleated to the neck band. The bodice straps run over the shoulder, and have the same trim as the rest of the neckline of the bodice. The sleeves are very wide and full, though a peek of the camicia sleeve can be seen in the far left corner of the painting. She wears a veil in her hair, but wears no necklace or partlet. The hair is parted down the center, and seems curly.
This dress reminds me very much of dresses from Florence, but I like the fact that the dark trim edges the front opening.
2. Moretto da Brescia, circa 1535: Portrait Of A Lady.
Another portrait of a lady, only roughly 10 to 15 years later. Fashions have changed somewhat! The artist has protrayed the lady nicely, making sure to display accessoiries. I love the fact that you can tell the kind of fabric from the painting: nothing shines like silk, does it? The creases match this too. The sleeves look to be velvet.
The bodice is longer than in the style above, and if I were to guess it runs to the natural waist at the navel or possibly a couple of centimeters below. Can't really tell how tall the lady is and if she is long-waisted. I see no real evidence of boning in the bodice, but it looks to be stiffened. The front gap is puzzling. It seems to 'stay up' and 'stay open' without any kind of ties or lacing. The way the neckline runs in the right half of the picture suggests that there is some kind of support for the bosom in the bodice, because there is some lift or push going on there, but that would hardly be possible without lacing.
The bodice is decorated with double strips of dark blue velvet. The artist took care to paint how the strips overlap, which shows the horizontal strips were sewn on before the vertical ones. The single vertical strip of velvet at the side of the bodice makes for a slimmer silhouette and runs over the shoulder strap. The straps are closer to the neck than in the above painting. An extra roll of fabric on the shoulder is also decorated with dark blue velvet strips. Some fur animal is over one shoulder.
The skirts are very full and appear to be gathered or pleated in some way, but the decorative belt of what appears to be some kind of metal plates obscures the attachment point, if there is one. I can't make out if there is a mid-front split in the skirts.
The sleeves appear to be loose from the gown, but I can't see any attachment points. Drape of the chemise suggests it is tied to the gown somewhere, or the chemise is poufed on purpose at the front of the arm. The green velvet sleeves are slashed to allow for the chemise to show through, and are more form-fitting. On the left sleeve I can see some sort of etching in the velvet nap.
The camicia looks to be square-necked, and has ties in front that run a few centimeters from the edge. I am unsure of the cuffs.
The lady wears a string of pearls with an enameld brass pendant, a ring, and has her hair braided around the crown of her head.
3. Jen Thompson's 1515 Florentine gown.
Part of me is squeeing in glee at seeing this dress. It's very beautiful because of its simple lines. The bodice is smooth and I love all the contrasting, dark strips on the bodice and skirts, and the sash. But part of me thinks that this is too 'peasanty' for Marianne. The full sleeves have never worked for me before, and I think they would get in the way.
4. Jen Thompson's 1480s Florentine Gown.
Another of those bodices that aren't too long, so they won't be fighting over my tummy. I love the front closures and I already have gold-toned eyes (from hooks and eyes) to do the lacing. This dress is special because of that closure in the front, and the veil partlet can do wonders too. It's a dress Steelweaver suggested to me long ago, and it's still up there with the others. It's rather simplistic, but I guess if I make it in lovely fabric it'll pop.
5. Jen Thompson's Venetian.
I simply adore this dress, but oh, the amount of work is staggering. The sleeves alone would keep me busy for years if I don't watch it.
There's several theories, if you read the Italian Showcase, on how to create enough support. Hemp rope and reed are options, but they've never really worked for me. You could use steel bones in the bodice, but you'd never be able to clean the dress properly. The dress itself will be heavy enough as it is, so to add boning would be a bad idea twice over. So...an effigy corset would be needed, with a gathered white strip of linen as corset cover. It's been done before! Really!
The Kharnun Boys aren't much help, as they'll probably go "...err...a new dress. You know. Like, with skirts. And stuff." So: I'd love to hear your imput!
I did some research, mostly in the Italian Showcase of the Realm of Venus. There's two very inspiring paintings. And there's three very inspiring dresses. So I'm forced to make a choice between five possibilities or to design a cross-over between them. All of them are Italian.
1. Unknown Venetian Artist, 1520s: Portrait of a Lady.The first painting is a painting of an unknown woman. This is a black and white image, I don't know if the original is also black and white, or what medium the artist used - charcoal springs to mind though it doesn't match the style. 16th century Venetian Lady.
The lady wears a dress with a rather high waistline. It looks like the waistline is above the navel. The front of the dress closes with ties, leaving what looks like a 4 to 5 cm gap, but perspective can throw me off here. Other painters, Palma Vecchio and Giovanni Cariani have painted similar closures.
There is something that looks like a sash in her lap, but it could also be that the front of the skirt has edging along the mid-front, allowing the skirt to fall open, showing a different coloured underdress, as can be seen in other paintings from Italy (unsure if that's the same period though).
The lady wears a scoop-necked chemise (camicia) underneath her gown, and the camicia is gathered or pleated to the neck band. The bodice straps run over the shoulder, and have the same trim as the rest of the neckline of the bodice. The sleeves are very wide and full, though a peek of the camicia sleeve can be seen in the far left corner of the painting. She wears a veil in her hair, but wears no necklace or partlet. The hair is parted down the center, and seems curly.
This dress reminds me very much of dresses from Florence, but I like the fact that the dark trim edges the front opening.
2. Moretto da Brescia, circa 1535: Portrait Of A Lady.Another portrait of a lady, only roughly 10 to 15 years later. Fashions have changed somewhat! The artist has protrayed the lady nicely, making sure to display accessoiries. I love the fact that you can tell the kind of fabric from the painting: nothing shines like silk, does it? The creases match this too. The sleeves look to be velvet.
The bodice is longer than in the style above, and if I were to guess it runs to the natural waist at the navel or possibly a couple of centimeters below. Can't really tell how tall the lady is and if she is long-waisted. I see no real evidence of boning in the bodice, but it looks to be stiffened. The front gap is puzzling. It seems to 'stay up' and 'stay open' without any kind of ties or lacing. The way the neckline runs in the right half of the picture suggests that there is some kind of support for the bosom in the bodice, because there is some lift or push going on there, but that would hardly be possible without lacing.
The bodice is decorated with double strips of dark blue velvet. The artist took care to paint how the strips overlap, which shows the horizontal strips were sewn on before the vertical ones. The single vertical strip of velvet at the side of the bodice makes for a slimmer silhouette and runs over the shoulder strap. The straps are closer to the neck than in the above painting. An extra roll of fabric on the shoulder is also decorated with dark blue velvet strips. Some fur animal is over one shoulder.
The skirts are very full and appear to be gathered or pleated in some way, but the decorative belt of what appears to be some kind of metal plates obscures the attachment point, if there is one. I can't make out if there is a mid-front split in the skirts.
The sleeves appear to be loose from the gown, but I can't see any attachment points. Drape of the chemise suggests it is tied to the gown somewhere, or the chemise is poufed on purpose at the front of the arm. The green velvet sleeves are slashed to allow for the chemise to show through, and are more form-fitting. On the left sleeve I can see some sort of etching in the velvet nap.
The camicia looks to be square-necked, and has ties in front that run a few centimeters from the edge. I am unsure of the cuffs.
The lady wears a string of pearls with an enameld brass pendant, a ring, and has her hair braided around the crown of her head.
3. Jen Thompson's 1515 Florentine gown.
Part of me is squeeing in glee at seeing this dress. It's very beautiful because of its simple lines. The bodice is smooth and I love all the contrasting, dark strips on the bodice and skirts, and the sash. But part of me thinks that this is too 'peasanty' for Marianne. The full sleeves have never worked for me before, and I think they would get in the way.
4. Jen Thompson's 1480s Florentine Gown.
Another of those bodices that aren't too long, so they won't be fighting over my tummy. I love the front closures and I already have gold-toned eyes (from hooks and eyes) to do the lacing. This dress is special because of that closure in the front, and the veil partlet can do wonders too. It's a dress Steelweaver suggested to me long ago, and it's still up there with the others. It's rather simplistic, but I guess if I make it in lovely fabric it'll pop.
5. Jen Thompson's Venetian.
I simply adore this dress, but oh, the amount of work is staggering. The sleeves alone would keep me busy for years if I don't watch it.
There's several theories, if you read the Italian Showcase, on how to create enough support. Hemp rope and reed are options, but they've never really worked for me. You could use steel bones in the bodice, but you'd never be able to clean the dress properly. The dress itself will be heavy enough as it is, so to add boning would be a bad idea twice over. So...an effigy corset would be needed, with a gathered white strip of linen as corset cover. It's been done before! Really!
The Kharnun Boys aren't much help, as they'll probably go "...err...a new dress. You know. Like, with skirts. And stuff." So: I'd love to hear your imput!
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no subject
Date: 2009-05-05 02:06 pm (UTC)The 1480's only works with the overdress, imho. It needs layers (like an onion).
I think I'd simplify 2 (make it with pink wool) or look at Jen's Moroni or doublet dresses.
Or make something girly and froofy.
http://www.festiveattyre.com/research/wkclass/wk5.html pretty in pastel
http://www.festiveattyre.com/research/florentine/flor11.html angel wings!
http://www.festiveattyre.com/research/florentine/flor30.html Kill It With Trim
http://www.festiveattyre.com/feature/yr4/week163.html sugar and...sugar
http://slumberland.org/moodle/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=2517 I R pwetty
Cranach might be pretty too, to up the puff-and-slash level even more.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-05 02:34 pm (UTC)The girly froofy things are great, but really not what I had my eye on. Cranach might be an option, but I'm afraid of killer boobies in *that*.
I've been stewing over it for a few hours now (this entry took way too long to write), and basically, I think if I add black trim like the 1515s Florentine, but with a front opening, it'll be allright. If I add a black sash and black trim at the hem as well, the purple will be at least somewhat broken. I can always add a black Moroni gown (http://www.festiveattyre.com/gallery/moroni/index.html) over it. (Lined in PINK!). Right?
I might even commit a certain amount of blasphemy by adding my Victorian corset as an underlayer as a sneaky murderer. It's a LOT more comfortable than stays. I remember the feeling of my midriff, and it wasn't pretty.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-05 02:51 pm (UTC)Purple just doesn't feel very Marianne to me. Of course, you know her better, but from what I've seen, purple gives away too much. I'd make her look girly and harmless, not commanding and severe. I'm not saying you can't wear it, but you can't change the char to fit the costume (well, not after you've started playing her). She needs a hatsie with a feather, and a fan.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-05 02:55 pm (UTC)If you want to make holes in anything, I'd suggest pinking as opposed to cutwork. Whacking fabric with a chisel is very therapeutic.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-05 02:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-05 02:21 pm (UTC)This is always a risky thing, but...
First, I would NOT do anything with cutwork sleeves (e.g., Jen Thompson's Venetian.) Absolutely gorgeous, but it is a huge amount of work and unless I needed points of some sort for that much extra effort, it probably isn't worth the payoff: after some ooh-ing and ahh-ing, the thrill sort of wears off for you and your audience (unless you keep bringing in new people to see your wonderful creation); worse, if this is not a "clothes horse" type dress in which you would stand around and be beautiful and garner compliments, but instead something you wear and are active in.... If the sleeves become stained or damaged, how will you feel?
Cavalier? Indifferent? Blase'?
Fine.
Heartsick?
If you would feel heartsick if anything untoward should happen, then this is not the sort of *sleeves* to be making.
Apart from all that, there is this.
The options you are presenting are not Italian, Italian, or Italian. In the late 1400s and throughout the 1500s, these fashions were Florentine, Brescian, and Venetian.
Italy as we think of it today---a unified nation---didn't exist. (And *even* today, regional cultures vary noticeably---and the regions take a great deal of pride in their regional dialect, cooking, customs, and so forth.)
At that time "Italy" was a geo-physical designation: the Italian peninsula, much as what is now Spain and Portugal used to be known as "The Iberian Peninsula," or as we speak today of "The Baltic States" or "Scandinavia" or "Latin [Central] America."
At that time, "Italy" was comprised of: two republics; the Papal States; numerous duchies, provinces and city-states. Each had its separate, strong sense of identity and of style.
These were further influenced in matters of fashion (and other questions) by *whose they were.* Simply being in Italy or, for instance, in Sicily, didn't make something automatically "Italian" or "Sicilian." After the Moors' reign in Sicily was ended, that island was ruled by Hapsburgs.
I'm not saying fashion was *dictated* by a head of 'state,' but I am saying the head of a political entity (or that person's spouse) did have *influence,* whether he or she cared about fashion or influencing fashion, or not.
The styles at which you have been looking vary not just because of a span of some years or decades, but also because you've shifted geo-political designations.
So, if historical precision, or even just accuracy, is an issue, then you will want to decide the where and when.
There really isn't a "generic Italian" style between 1480 and 1550, or even later.
Hoping that this is of some practical help.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-05 02:47 pm (UTC)That said, I would love to share this one quote with you. A friend of mine had just made a lovely coat with train for her character. It was raining and muddy outside, so I warned her that her train was dragging through the mud. Her reply? "It shouldn't have become a LARP coat then."
Best way to view costumes *ever*.
This character of mine is a froofy girl, if I may steal Steelweaver's terms, and she is a priestess of Kharnun, whose colour is purple. There's several shades of purple, but the historical one doesn't really fit. There's only so much you can do with cochenille and indigo, after all.
While we're on the subject of historical accuracy and larp - nobody gives a damn here. Last time I wore something historical, people were all oohing, but they didn't care if it was historical. They were merely oohing because it was such a pretty little mantua.
I know I'm not all knowledgeable about the difference between Sicily, Florence and Venice, and the only things I know is what I gleaned from Jacqueline Carey's fantasy version of Italy, called the Caerdicci city states. Roughly based on, but not quite the same.
Since this doesn't matter to *most* of the people reading the blog and nobody who will see the dress will care about the difference between a dress from Florence or one from Venice (let alone know where they are, geographically speaking), I just used what they would know about. I'm sorry this bothers you so. I do understand that there is a major difference, but I'm really not going to lecture someone about the wrong kind of chopines at a larp, because nobody really cares about it there anyway.
Do you know how hard it is to even convince people to wear head coverings? I am an adamant supporter of Silly Little Hatses (tm) but many, many people don't care. It's a game. It's larp.
So...cutwork sleeves. I would love some! I'd probably spend much time making them, lovingly. I once made a cutwork dragon tribal (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3263/2650724710_b7b168e94e_o.jpg) for a coat, like appliqué, but different. The main problem with cutwork sleeves is that you'll need two of them. And if they were to break? Well, too bad. Yes, it was a lot of work. Perhaps I can fix them. Larp costumes get better, the more they are fixed. There's loads of stuff I can do with a simple zig-zag and the repair stitch on my sewing machine. The last thing I want is to freak out over a larp dress. It's a dress, it's meant for larp, and where you play, people die. I've never worried about my costumes, as they're always meant to be worn while having fun (i.e.: roll around in the sand, stroll through the undergrowth). The only thing that worries me is fake blood, because not all of it comes out of fabric.
Long text, but I hope it clarifies some stuff!
no subject
Date: 2009-05-05 06:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-05 07:38 pm (UTC)The sleeves...are a problem for later. They really are terribly difficult to decide upon!
no subject
Date: 2009-05-05 07:52 pm (UTC)Now I don't know your character (I am assuming this is for you, if Marrianne is not the name of your character, but a chum then ignore me, I'm talking out my nose!), or the system you are playing in so it's hard for me to comment on that, but, your gut is a good place to start. You know her better than anyone else. Purple may be a bit much for you, but it's not you, you're playing and sometimes, larp costumes are a great way to get you out of your comfort zone. Black or midnight blue should calm things down a bit though.
http://www.lynnmcmasters.com/ has an interesting Elizabethan Sleeves pattern. I'm not sure if it's the right period, but nice for interest, and easier to do than you think. I'm very much of the 'sod it, if it looks good, it's right' train of thought to larp costume, unless it is specified for a definite period.
If possible I would print them all out on seperate pieces of paper and have them all out at the same time and take away those that don't 'speak' to you.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-05 08:04 pm (UTC)Marianne is the character I played last weekend. She used to be a schizophrenic religious fanatic. Now she's a religious fantatic and a priestess! Colour of her God is purple, and purple suits me fine. I have a darker hair colour in these two photo's (of the same dress which was rather hard to photograph). One (http://foto.evolution-events.nl/closeup.php?filename=lextalionis/Lextalionis1/Tineke/004%204.jpg) Two (http://foto.evolution-events.nl/closeup.php?filename=lextalionis/Lextalionis1/Richard/0030%2030.jpg).
Of course I am wearing make up to make me look as pale as a vampire, so you'll just have to take my word for it ;-)
As for "out of my comfort zone"... this (http://www.charmlive.nl/foto/Charm%2016%20(april%202009)/Charm81.jpg) is out of my comfort zone! Anything white will make me squirm. Very recent picture, hate the blotchy face but my hair colour is real.
Like Nathan suggested: two colours is probably the best way to go about it. Black velvet is calling my name... and that website you plugged is not helping. I see paned sleeves or perhaps sleeves with diagonal trim...
So many cool ideas, and I'm still stuck on the phase of how to make the silhouette I want!
no subject
Date: 2009-05-05 08:20 pm (UTC)Two colour will work fine. I will think on the underpinning issue though. Rigeline just doesn't cut it really.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-06 08:18 am (UTC)Rigilene, reeds and hemp rope have been tried and have all failed (in different garments). I am now at the stage where I will want to try a seperate support garment underneath. For shaping, I should probably go with an effigy or a pair of stays with steel boning. For comfort and laziness, I'm very much considering wearing my Victorian midbust (http://www.venacavadesign.co.uk/Gallery/lobegallery1_image135.html) underneath and putting a corset cover in front of it, as has been tried in this Venetian (http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/yourgarb/2008/Fiore.htm) (only she used stays appropriate for the period). I know I am sinning by using a corset from a different period, but my stays were bloody doom and hellfire after a few hours and I know I can wear a Victorian corset for longer periods of time.
So I guess the next steps are to drape a bodice over my corset and see what silhouette it gives me.
One more question: should I make it a dress diary?
no subject
Date: 2009-05-06 08:41 pm (UTC)Whatever is comfortable. I would however look at your stays at some point in the future and try and work out why they are so uncomfortable so you have the option of wearing stays again, but with the issues ironed out, as the shape they can give, if done right is bloody spectacular!
And as to the dress diary? Is Jack O'Neil sarcastic? Of course we want a diary!
no subject
Date: 2009-05-06 07:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-06 08:20 am (UTC)I scaled the image down as it was huuuuuuge.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-06 08:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-06 08:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-06 08:33 pm (UTC)